Linux News

[wbierman]

Dnar is always alerting us to Windows flaws so I thought I would help out with the kinks in Linux.

-- Security Alert Consensus --
Number 110 (01.33)
Thursday, August 16, 2001
Created for you by
Network Computing and the SANS Institute
Powered by Neohapsis

- --- Linux News ---------------------------------------------------------

*** {01.33.001} Linux - Update {01.30.021}: Multiple vendor telnetd
option-handling overflow

Multiple vendors have released updated packages that fix the vulnerability discussed in {01.30.021} ("Multiple vendor telnetd option handling overflow").

As a side note, an advisory was released indicating that the telnetd included in the Linux netkit versions prior to and including 0.17 is also vulnerable (it was previously reported that netkit versions 0.14 and later were not vulnerable).

Updated RedHat krb5 (Kerberos-telnetd) RPMs: http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2001-08/0107.html

Updated RedHat telnetd RPMs: http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2001-08/0116.html

Updated Caldera Linux telnetd RPMs: http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/linux/caldera/2001-q3/0013.html

Updated Debian telnetd RPMs: http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vendor/2001-q3/0018.html

Updated Debian telnetd-ssl DEBs: http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vendor/2001-q3/0022.html

Updated Mandrake telnetd RPMs: http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2001-08/0178.html

Source: SecurityFocus Bugtraq, Caldera, Debian, Mandrake, RedHat http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2001-08/0099.html
http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2001-08/0107.html
http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2001-08/0116.html
http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/linux/caldera/2001-q3/0013.html
http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vendor/2001-q3/0018.html
http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vendor/2001-q3/0022.html
http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2001-08/0178.html

*** {01.33.004} Linux - Update {01.28.021}: xloadimage/faces reader
buffer overflow

Debian has released updated xloadimage packages that fix the vulnerability discussed in {01.28.021} ("xloadimage/faces reader buffer overflow").

Updated DEBs are listed at: http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vendor/2001-q3/0016.html

Source: Debian http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vendor/2001-q3/0016.html

*** {01.33.013} Linux - Update {01.30.014}: IMP local prefs.lang script
execution

Debian has released updated IMP packages that fix the vulnerability discussed in {01.30.014} ("IMP local prefs.lang script execution").

Updated DEBs are listed at: http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vendor/2001-q3/0020.html

Source: Debian http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vendor/2001-q3/0020.html


-- Security Alert Consensus --
Number 111 (01.34)
Thursday, August 23, 2001
Created for you by
Network Computing and the SANS Institute
Powered by Neohapsis


- --- Linux News ---------------------------------------------------------

*** {01.34.007} Linux - Update {01.33.005}: Fetchmail LIST response
memory overwrite

EnGarde Linux has released updated Fetchmail packages that fix the vulnerability discussed in {01.33.005} ("Fetchmail LIST response memory overwrite").

Updated RPMs are listed at: http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/linux/engarde/2001-q3/0005.html

Source: EnGarde http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/linux/engarde/2001-q3/0005.html

*** {01.34.008} Linux - Update {01.32.006}: sdbsearch CGI local
keylist.txt shell script execution

SuSE has released updated sdb packages that fix the vulnerability discussed in {01.32.006} ("sdbsearch CGI local keylist.txt shell script execution").

Updated RPMs are listed at: http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vendor/2001-q3/0029.html

Source: SuSE http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vendor/2001-q3/0029.html

*** {01.34.009} Linux - Update {01.25.018}: Fetchmail large header
buffer overflow

SuSE has released updated Fetchmail packages that fix the vulnerability discussed in {01.25.018} ("Fetchmail large header buffer overflow").

Updated RPMs are listed at: http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vendor/2001-q3/0028.html

Source: SuSE http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/vendor/2001-q3/0028.html

*** {01.34.010} Linux - XDMCP query overflow in gdm

Mandrake has released an advisory that indicates a buffer overflow in gdm in the handling of XDMCP queries. At this point, we don't know if this is a new overflow or an update to the XDMCP overflow in gdm reported in May 2000 ({00.22.017}).

Updated Mandrake RPMs: http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2001-08/0288.html

Source: Mandrake (SecurityFocus Bugtraq) http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/bugtraq/2001-08/0288.html

[Jodie]

The thing to notice is how these are fixed within a day or so and new patches out for them, versus the weeks to months for most other OS'...:p

[dnar]

wbierman - Dont get me wrong man, I dont go posting virus alerts to poke fun at Microsoft users, I do it accasionaly to help peeps out.... perhaps not everyone here is aware of problems in older versions of Microsoft Java...

Now, whats the idea of this thread ??? Helping Linux users, clearly.

[wbierman]

I was only trying to show that Windows is not the only OS with hicups....


I am always confronted by the majority of Linux devotes about how bad Windows is. It's like if you try Linux out and keep it on a machine or two (or a whole bunch of machines) that by doing so requires you to join a seceret Linux society where by from that moment on you trash the other side. They gleefully lick their lips when ever the latest news surfaces about MS and a glitch in one of its products. They only want to show you one side of the coin.

I think competition is good as it forces both side to produce better products.

How should Linux compete against MS?

Linux is moving quickly into the server market. But as it takes away market share from MS it also takes away market share form Sun and Solaris and the other Nix's. I believe IBM has recognized this and is now pushing Linux because it is a service company where as Sun is a hardware company with a proprietary OS. Sun makes lots of money selling its solutions and not selling service like IBM. Sun would have trouble selling Linux.

Business 101:

How do you compete in a given market? You could purchase your competitor and incorporate their technology. You could make a better product. You could run to the government and cry in their ear about how a certain competitor is not playing fair. So the government tries to knock the successful company backwards so the crying competition can spend less on acquisitions and R&D. Why did the Japanese move in to the American market and do so well? They made a better product! The world of business is littered with stories like this. What ever happened to Novel?

The next area is marketing... he who markets best - wins! IBM had OS2 out the door and in the market long before the world was rid of Win 3.1 with the release of Win95. Everyone knew OS2 was better but it died a quite death as it became a nitch player running teller machines. Why? IBM was not a marketing company but rather a service company.

What is MS? MS is a marketing machine running 25x8x366! Like the Cig companies who sell cigs as a delivery vehical for nicotene. MS pushes Windows as a delivery vehical for 3rd party applications. Linux will have trouble is this area. Why? Because it is spread out among a dozen companies pushing it...each one different. MS has built a monster of a marketing machine. Publicity...MS is in the news just about evey day...good and bad news but it is there every day. XP....everyone has heard about it and yet the public has to wait a month or two to finally see it. Think of how much money has been saved not having to market XP so far. The Tech community has done that for MS with all its critiicsism.

So how does Linux market? We will give it away for free. Very cool idea. Who can complain about zero cost? How do you deliever it to the masses? Put it on a zillion mirrored sites. MS puts product support (trial product, downloads, service packs, updates, etc. out via its partners via very large bandwidth pipes. Most of the Linux mirrors are sitting in University basements on much smaller pipes. What does all that mean? If you want to compete in the market then make your product easy to get. If you make it difficult you will suffer. The varoius FREE Linux distros have always required a user to posses a CD burner or a friend with one. Until recently that limited the number of users capable of actually burning an ISO image. Now they are cheap as compared to when I got my first one 5 years ago. This year was the first time MS required a user to have a CD burner when it released XP betas as an ISO image. To get that image was painless. Trying to get Red Hat 6.2 was not. Hours were spent trying just to find a mirror that actually had content. (This was just after Red Hat announced that 6.2 was available) I'm guessing that has improved since last year. I have always wondered why they never used the AOL method of CD carpet bombing. Send every American man, women, child, dog, and cat a free Linux CD. How did AOL get so big?

Support: What is Linux support like? Well, since it is free, a Linux company has to sell something to generate income. So they sell service and support. I have 6 friend who have tried Mandrake 8.0 in the past month. 5 bought Mandrake off the shelf because they wanted tele support. 4 of those 5 ran into trouble and had to call. If they got through, they spoke to someone different each time. And each time, tell their storyall over again. No incident tracking or history.... not great product support. MS has lines open 24X7 with complete incident tracking and history. Don't like the phone, then you can do it online viathe Web. Someone mentioned last night at my dinner that there is vast network of Linux users upon which to draw from. Ture great point!. But if you only have one machine and it is down then you are limited by the number of friends you know who are running Linux.

All of this aside, it really comes down to marketing. The MS marketing model has been very constant for years. It has been there for all to see, pick apart, study, and emulate. No one has really tried so far. IBM had OS2 but screwed developers by charging an arm and a leg for the OS2 dev tools. Is that why hardly anyone developed for OS2? MS practicully gives away its tools. MS goes out of its way to help and encourage developers. Sales offices world wide where anyone can walk in a pickup trial software and all the marketing material you can carry out. Where are the Linux offices?

How to beat MS? Out market them plain and simple! Hire the smartest people you can find. Hang out in the parking lots in Redmond and recruit the smartest marketing people away from MS. That is how to beat MS. (Doesn't hurt to have a better product too.)

rant mode fading away......

[wbierman]

Dnar- I was not completely aware of your motives...I stand corrected.

[dnar]

On the subject of support, I have experienced both good and bad on both sides of the fence. Just try getting developer support from Microsoft.... Heck, they even provide miss-information to developers (this appears to provide Microsoft with an edge re: application software). On the Linux side, support can be difficult for Newbies, News Groups are a great source of information, but newbies beware! I see all too often, newbies told to RTFM etc etc. Man, I know, I have been through it all, that is why I give hours each day to helping ANYONE on this team with Linux issues. Try hangin in the chat room some time, you will see.

[MechCD]

anoher thing. do you understand what allt hat means wbierman? Xloadimage isn't gonna take the system down. X windows may die, but everything else is still uo abd runnin fine..... and with fetchmail.. thats for servers.. server peeps need thsi info. they run 24/7 with a constant IP addy. this stuff is major for them. for me? i've had 2 fatal crahes. 1 was when i overlcoked waaay too much. and the other was due to a power supply problem.

[wbierman]

mis-information? If they truely did that then nobodies 3rd party app would ever work. Do they hide certain APIs...probably. But "mis-information" would be counter productive....

[dnar]

Originally posted by wbierman
mis-information? If they truely did that then nobodies 3rd party app would ever work. Do they hide certain APIs...probably. But "mis-information" would be counter productive....
Intentional or not, the Windows API documentaion does contain erroneous information. Such as, call parameters with no description other than "must be set to 1", when actually it must be set to 0. This results in much wasted time during developemnt. Microsoft have a limit on the size of a Bitmap, funny that MS products can overcome the limit though....

Many examples of this, it has been several years since I ceased writting Windows apps (Delphi), so it's just a bad memory for me. If I can find the time, I will dig up more examples of this if your interested.

[Jodie]

Windows * is the superior desktop OS. Linux is the superior server OS for 1-4 processors. Solaris is the superior server Os for 16-64 processors. Irix and/or Cosix is the superior server os for 64-1024+ processors. There is no one right answer. But if I have mission critical server tasks, I will trust each of them according to that placing. The pissing contest simply doesn't matter.

Having access to the server source code for some instances can be a tremendous boon. G@H as an example. Embedding as a second. That's another place where Linux plays very well. Another is in inexpensive licensing for embedded systems.

They each have their strengths... And weaknesses.

[dnar]

Yes Linux is work in progress.
Yes Linux is not perfect.
Yes Linux is Open Source.
Yes Linux is receiving daily updates.
Yes Linux is not fully mature.

But, it works for me and many others too. I update my Email and News clients almost weekly, other application software monthly. My base OS receives updates as I feel fit, and generally only security fixes are considered. This is way different to other Commercial software, and for the moment does not suit the average user. One day it will (I hope). Linux sure has matured in the past 2 years, it is exciting and much fun to be a part of. For me, Linux provides a much better alternative than Windows, it has taken many years to get to this stage however, only this year have I been able to do away with Windows as a primary OS. I still rely on Windows (running under Linux) to support some applications.

Linux is not for everyone, but for those that are willing to invest the time and resources, it does provide a very good solution.

I agree with Jodie, each OS has it's strenghts. IMHO, Windows main strength is application availability and interoperability with other users.... The reliance on MS Word and Excel between businesses is great. Products like StarOffice however are slowly changing this.

So, no OS wars! Please! If you want to use Linux then do so, I will help and support you as much as I can. If you are happy with Windows then stay with it!

[wbierman]

Jodie has shown us how one can strip an kernel down to only what she needs... a Genome crunching toaster. She has chosen speed over usability. Her toaster does only one thing...crunch Genomes. I use the term usability because I can sit down at any of my machines and login with my roaming profile and up pops my desktop with all my pretty icons. All my links, shared drives, and documents are there to provide everything I might want to work or play with. In the background Genome is crunching away.

She chooses speed...I choose usability.

[Jodie]

True, but I also have two machines that can be used as general-use computers - one Win2k on a dual 1.13/1024 and one Linux-RedHat7.1/SMP on a dual 1Ghz/2048. The GenomeToasters are designed to be exactly that, (and I love the expression, btw, think I'll print out little 'intel inside'-like stickers with a DNA strand and "Genome Toaster Inside" text), genome appliances and nothing more. (and nothing less - I see excluding all the anonymous users, I'm ranked fifteenth in production out of 10,000+ users, I must be doing something ok... Need to bring that up a bit, though... Double my current production would be good...) I played Tombraider on the Win2k machine this evening (whilst crunching an 86aa and a 92aa), and edited the next round of patent drafts on the Linux box as well as my budget projections for the next fiscal year (staroffice, exported to Word Excel and Powerpoint so that the attorney could read the former, and the later could be read by our CEO and I could present them to the BoD), with a chat window open through part of it. I'm definitely a 'Power User' in that I use all of my machines/OS' exactly as they were designed for, but have very little tolerance for deviation from what I lable 'decent performance'... Others MMV.

The Win2k machine does make an awesome little gaming box. The GeForce3 doesn't hurt, either...
;)

[MechCD]

I lost the whole topic of this thread........Anyways my thoughs are:

Linux is for those why like to tinker (alot) and like full control over their OS. You also need to know what yer doing to use linux, and it does take time to get the hang of it.

Windows is fine for the average user and even power users. It is for those who want it to just "work" without fiddling or sitting there for 30 minutes trying to compile something (hehehehe)

I have no problem with peeps using windows, I use windows sometimes. Mostly just for games and some office apps, becasue i don't really like StarOffice. Otherwise, i do the majority of my stuff in linux, web browsing, web editing, some office stuff, graphics (mad skillz), file hosting over the lan (MP3s :)) and other things.

Now with windows, the drivers can be hard to get werking right. I am still having trouble with my A7V133a and its geforce 1, i don't know if its the windows drivers, the vid card, or the powersupply (hinting towards PSu though) I don't have those problems in linux.

I'm not saying you won't have problems, some video card drivers don't work very well in Linux, or may be beta, they sometimes work, sometimes they don't.

But one hting is, when X windows crashes, 99% of the time, actual linux is still running underneath. If you can get to that console, you can bring X back up. Another thing, is when one thing crashes, everything else stays runnning, there is not one app that will bring the entire system down (some exceptions is a massive core dump that chews up all the HDD spce, very rare, most likely from THAT app not being debugged very well)

[siggy]

Well I think the world is big enough for 2 OS. :)

[wbierman]

Linux is as commericial as it gets. Top 3 "Linux" companies in the US. As listed on the Nasdaq Exchange:

Caldera International, Inc. Symbol: CALD Curent: $0.64

52 week High: $9.00 52 Week Low: $0.55

Market Cap: $36.5 Million Earnings/share $ -0.87


VA Linux Systems, Inc Symbol: LNUX Current: $1.71

52 Week High: $63.62 52 Week Low: $1.55

Market Cap: $92 Million Earnings/share $ -10.78


Red Hat, Inc. Symbol: RHAT Current: $3.60

52 Week High: $28.00 52 Week Low: $3.25

Market Cap: $611.3 Million Earnings/share $ -0.59


Red Hat is the strongest while Caldera is the weakest. The number one priority of any publicly traded company is to return equity to its shareholders. All three lost money in the last Quarter. Caldera is facing "delisting" by Nasdaq because its share price has dropped below the $1.00 per share mark. Most companies that are delisted..... never return.

[randycw]

Might add that Mandrake is also traded publicly in the European markets -- just released IPO about a month ago.

[MechCD]

You can download redhat and most others for free... I did it on dialup, its possible, takes a week with a planned download schedule.

[dnar]

Originally posted by wbierman
Linux is as commericial as it gets. Top 3 "Linux" companies in the US. As listed on the Nasdaq Exchange:



Caldera International, Inc. Symbol: CALD Curent: $0.64



52 week High: $9.00 52 Week Low: $0.55



Market Cap: $36.5 Million Earnings/share $ -0.87





VA Linux Systems, Inc Symbol: LNUX Current: $1.71



52 Week High: $63.62 52 Week Low: $1.55



Market Cap: $92 Million Earnings/share $ -10.78


Red Hat, Inc. Symbol: RHAT Current: $3.60



52 Week High: $28.00 52 Week Low: $3.25



Market Cap: $611.3 Million Earnings/share $ -0.59





Red Hat is the strongest while Caldera is the weakest. The number one priority of any publicly traded company is to return equity to its shareholders. All three lost money in the last Quarter. Caldera is facing "delisting" by Nasdaq because its share price has dropped below the $1.00 per share mark. Most companies that are delisted..... never return.

Now your talking Linux "Distributions", yes the Distributions are a Businuess. What is Linux??? Linux is a kernel, that is all. The kernel is free and is not written exclusively by any of the companies you have listed. Linux Distributions are selling packaging, you are not paying for software licenses.

[wbierman]

Yes the kernel is FREE! The packaging and support is not and never will be. This a great in a perfect world...but sad to say it is not quite perfect yet...

There are many compamies "profitting" from the free kernel. The business model is based on services, support, customized solutions and hardware sales. Is Sun going to give away Linux for free? Yes but not without a purchase of some Sun hardware to get it. Sun would rather you purchased Solaris...

Some of you sound like your in the Free Software camp. How do you pay the bills writting free software? How do you buy the house, or put your kids through college? That takes lots of money and the last time I checked... nobody was giving it away!

How about the old adages... "you pay for what you get," or you ask a lawyer for some "free advise" and he tells you "it is worth exactly what you paid for it."

[Jodie]

"Free software" is free. I contribute substantially to 'free software', and I bill-out at over $250/hr.

Just because you're paid in your "day job" doesn't mean you can't also contribute to "something that's cool and gives you bragging rights and is simply fun to do"...

Who's paying you to contribute to G@H? There's little difference. In fact, the only significant difference is that contributing to an OpenSoftware group requires skill and G@H doesn't...

[dnar]

Well actually, I am in both camps. I work as a proffessional software and hardware engineer, I also donate a good 10-20 hours per week in support and development...





Your wrong in stating that Linux Distributions are commercial endevours. Debian is not and neither are the majority of well know distros. Like I stated earlier, the commercial distro companies are selling packaging, CD-ROM's, Documentation and optionaly, support. RedHat are the most successfull distro packager, you can download the distro for free too! That just proves one thing, the software is free, it is the packaging your paying for. Hell, in Australia, just about every computer magazine comes with a cover disk that more often than not includes a complete Linux distro...





For businesses, you can either download one of many available distros OR purchase a package, and install the distro on as many servers/workstations as you like. Remember, your not buying a license!





Another thing, IMHO, the majority of Linux support is provided free of charge, by dedicated Linux users...





Just what is your point wbierman? I fail to see the point you are trying to make in this thread, please enlighten us.

http://members.dingoblue.net.au/~dnar/images/icons/clustertux.gif

[Jodie]

Actually, I have to admit to getting TREMENDOUS free W2K support this evening...

THANK YOU WBierman and VIPERDOG!!!

(we now return you to the previously scheduled flame-fest)

[wbierman]

Free support....all well and good.

But if my business critical Web server goes down and my Linux friends are not available (out of town, out of the office, or around the world asleep due to time difference), what do I do? Every minute I'm down, money is no longer coming in. Or if it is a File Server and all my knowledge workers are sitting there twiddling their thumbs.... what do I tell them or my customers? I can't contact my friend (Linux tech support)?

There is no business worth it's salt that would rely on support that might or might not be there in a critical situation.

I have a 1-800 number to business critical support from MS. This number is available to me 24x7x365. I have connections and it is free. If I call with an incident, I have a MS tech until the problem is resolved. Period! MS tracks each incident, its resolution and its conclusion. If I call a year later with it, MS can quickly bring up my past incidents and quickly resolve the issue. Not so with Mandrake support. The reason I called Mandrake was to receive phone support which I paid for. Should I not get support that I paid for? I might want to run a business and not have to deal with poorly documented manuals or flacky support.

[wbierman]

What is my point? I have no idea....I guess you could say that I am pointless... be that as it may...

I have several friends that manage large enterprizes 300,000+ users. If I mention Linux they just laugh. Why? There first answer is always "Where is the standard?" Too many distros...too many different desktops... "How much is support?" Costs more than Windows support!! We would have to retrain our support centers. (We are talking about companies that spans the US and or globe as in the case of Chevron Oil) We would have to retrain all our workers.....? At that point their eyes roll back in there heads. The next answer is no way!!!!

I guess that is my point....I'm soo happy I found a point....

[Jodie]

I have a 1-800 number to business critical support from RedHat. This number is available to me 24x7x365. I have connections and it is free. If I call with an incident, I have a RedHat tech until the problem is resolved. Period! RedHat tracks each incident, its resolution and its conclusion.

What's my point? If you want solid real support for Linux, subscribe to RedHat...

(And Chevron has a few of our boxxen, incidentally, running RedHat. It's invisible - whether they even know if it's RedHat or not, I'm uncertain. They do know they have 24x7x365 support available to them from an 800 number. . . )

I have two 300,000+ user installations running RedHat, and know that the two heaviest trafficed sites on the 'Net run Linux.
True support contracts are available from several venders (mandrake not among them) IBM and RedHat being my first two choices.

What's my point? My point is that the differences between the two operating systems in terms of paid support is negligible. If we're going to debate, it needs to be on another point in this topic. This one is moot.

[dnar]

One question... When is the snack bar opening??? I need popcorn and I need it now!!!!


http://members.dingoblue.net.au/~dnar/images/icons/3dbiggrin4.gif



Jolly good show.

[wbierman]

First, I'm not talking servers. I'm talking about the desktop and the average user. That is a whole other ballgame!


Point... counter point!

We can discuss the recent move by The Hard Rock Cafe from Linux to a 100% Windows shop worldwide. After they did their testing, Windows was a better solution and they are saving money from there old systems that were running Linux and Linux based applications.

[dnar]

What? No popcorn? No snack bar? Geeesh, at least the sheep shaggers have popcorn!!! :D

[Bruce]

Originally posted by dnar
For businesses, you can either download one of many available distros OR purchase a package, and install the distro on as many servers/workstations as you like. Remember, your not buying a license!

Another thing, IMHO, the majority of Linux support is provided free of charge, by dedicated Linux users...


Well, one of these days you may talk me into taking the plunge too. I spend 5 years as a part-time (along with other responsibilites) unix systems guy with 3 servers and 150 client workstations (because everybody else that knew anything about computers was busy getting the company to pay for their M$ certification.) I know enough about unix (actually AIX) that I'm not afraid of linux.

So, now my question: Suppose I decide to buy a support agreement with (say, RedHat.) Is there any real difference in the distributed code, depending on where you get it, or can I load one distro and buy support somewhere else?

In the unix world, there are two major dialects, plus a very significant difference in add-ons (such as a GUI administration tool :eek: :eek: ) Are the linux distros like that?

[Daniel, Laura, and Nora]

Fascinating. C'mon Jodie, shake it off. Put 'em up!



(Psst, Dnar, if you keep poaching my Jujubees I'm going to change seats)



Daniel

[dnar]

Originally posted by Daniel, Laura, and Nora


Fascinating. C'mon Jodie, shake it off. Put 'em up!









(Psst, Dnar, if you keep poaching my Jujubees I'm going to change seats)









Daniel





Sorry Daniel! How about a box of chocolate coated nuts to make ammends? I'm guna head out for some Soda. anyone want some?

BTW, what is the score? :)

[wbierman]

Where is my trainer? I need to spit the blood out....

[Jodie]

"Would you hit a guy with glasses?" "No... I'd hit him with my fist..." :p Just teasing...

Bruce,

at the TAO level of support, you can get RedHat (24x7) to support AIX, Windows v2.0 and that old copy of SuperCalc that runs on your Osborne and Kaypro. :p I think TAO is silly - hire a dedicated helpdesk person, probably cost less. ( Although there are a couple of nice features that come with TAO - you get your car tongue-bathed by your rep. twice a month and if you're at all unhappy with the service you're permitted to shoot your support rep, the sales person who sold him to you, and up to three levels above them and throw the bodies in the dumpster. RedHat's COO (CEO service is extra) will then come out and personally empty your dumpster for you. He will then crawl all the way home on his knees which is especially amusing if you live in Japan or Australia...)

At the other levels, RedHat knows RedHat best. I've had support for Mandrake, Debian and stuff I've compiled [weak grin], but they don't have it installed on their systems and I'd kinda call it "general Unix support"... If it's really sticky and icky, I'd stick with RedHat when calling Redhat...

[Jodie]

Originally posted by wbierman
First, I'm not talking servers. I'm talking about the desktop and the average user. That is a whole other ballgame!


Point... counter point!

We can discuss the recent move by The Hard Rock Cafe from Linux to a 100% Windows shop worldwide. After they did their testing, Windows was a better solution and they are saving money from there old systems that were running Linux and Linux based applications.

Oops, almost missed this one.

That's what this really comes down to... RedHat would HAPPILY make a trade with Redmond - RedHat gets all the Servers and MS gets to keep all the lusers...

RedHat does desktop support and I don't envy them that [shiver] I think if they had a brain they'd dump the desktop stuff in the trash and support the server market.

But what's confusing about your statement is:



Wbierman: "But if my business critical Web server goes down and my Linux friends are not available (out of town, out of the office, or around the world asleep due to time difference), what do I do? Every minute I'm down, money is no longer coming in. Or if it is a File Server and all my knowledge workers are sitting there twiddling their thumbs.... what do I tell them or my customers? I can't contact my friend (Linux tech support)? "


Wbierman: "First, I'm not talking about servers"

Ok, now I'm confused: a "business critical Web server" and a "File Server [that supports all your enterprise knowledge workers]" sound like servers to me...

You don't sell a premium support contract to a luser. And it occupies 99% of your time. And in MS' case it must sting especially hard supporting a user that's pirated your OS and uses a stollen credit card (or simply cancels payment on it through some petty self-justification methodology) to pay for said support. Nope, I'd rather support Enterprise Admins supporting their Server Farm myself. Atleast they can probably find the power plug when you ask them to plug it in...

HardRock? Ok, I see you Hard Rock and raise you Amazon - they dumped windows and switched to Linux because cost/user and support costs were eating them out of house and home... Maybe that's why Hard Rock filed for bankruptcy protection?

[wylie]

I "look after" our office network, but would hardly call myself a sys admin. Jodies point makes sense (MS providing support for pirated software etc). Having paid A$3000 for Small Business Server a few years ago and now looking at having to pay that again for a new version (MS have stopped discounted upgrades for existing users), and never once calling microsoft except for an activation code for a user licence disk, I would rather have paid a hellova lot less and paid for support as needed. Incidentally the SBS package comes with THREE calls to microsoft....extras are charged. Whether this is the same elsewhere I do not know.

[dnar]

Originally posted by wylie



Incidentally the SBS package comes with THREE calls to microsoft....extras are charged. Whether this is the same elsewhere I do not know.



Others may have experienced better support than myself from Microsoft, however, I have always found that three calls are necessary just in order to have your problem elevated in priority, and to the the point that someone with more than 1 years IT experience is dealling with your issues.... As I said, others may have experienced much better support than this, this is just my past experience.







Now were is the darn popcorn!!!! No popcorn soon and I'm off to hang with the sheep shaggers! :D :D :D

[Jodie]

Originally posted by dnar




Others may have experienced better support than myself from Microsoft, however, I have always found that three calls are necessary just in order to have your problem elevated in priority, and to the the point that someone with more than 1 years IT experience is dealling with your issues.... As I said, others may have experienced much better support than this, this is just my past experience.


Don't you just love that? I got into it the other day with support from Quantum (which isn't quantum anymore)...

The kid on the phone and I got into it over what the problem was with the drive... About 20mins into explaining the physics of rotating objects to him he drops (after BEGGING him to escalate the ticket multiple times) this bomb on me "yes, well, *I* have a degree in computer science" I couldn't stop giggling...
:p :rolleyes:


Now were is the darn popcorn!!!! No popcorn soon and I'm off to hang with the sheep shaggers! :D :D :D

What's with you Aussies? It always comes down to popcorn or sheep-shagging. Or popcorn AND sheep-shagging...:rolleyes: :p :D

[wylie]

Originally posted by Jodie
What's with you Aussies? It always comes down to popcorn or sheep-shagging. Or popcorn AND sheep-shagging...:rolleyes: :p :D

Yeah......what..........something wrong with that??? ;)

[dnar]

Originally posted by Jodie








What's with you Aussies? It always comes down to popcorn or sheep-shagging. Or popcorn AND sheep-shagging...:rolleyes: :p :D [/B]



Not into sheep shagging myself, but heh, the sheep shaggers HAVE popcorn AND snack bar discount vouchers!!! We need to get more organised here..... :D :rolleyes: ;)

[wbierman]

Whats going on here.... some of my posts are missing...?

[dnar]

Originally posted by wbierman

Whats going on here.... some of my posts are missing...?

Must be a Windows thing... :D

[wylie]

I saw you were "posting a reply" before and it never made it....
I was waiting for it to appear before replying and it didnt.
Suggest you tell Phil.....

[dnar]

We can check the logs. Wbierman, did your missing posts appear at all???

[Jodie]

No comment.

[Jodie]

actually, I missed half the posts- didn't see page two.. I'm on a windows machine - go figure. :p :D

Seriously, I look forward to your reply... Hopefully you can resurrect the lost posts!

[Jodie]

Windows Embedded Compiler for CE is giving me a headache... I'm going to bed...:( Hope to see your posts in the morning, Wbierman!

[wbierman]

There were two posts that went somewhere into the ether...

I think I was making fun of myself.... trying to keep it light with a touch of soy...

There seems to be little desire left to keep banging heads with the Uber Fem Geek Goddess. I'll just instead keep throwing eggs at Dnar.

Sort of a pick on the weakest link thing. hehehe

All I can say is I get my work done with little effort. My machines are always running except for a bad HD here or there. I can sit at any of them and find whatever I need. I can install any commerical application with little effort. Without reading any docs or manuals. They run and I am productive. They don't crash but crunch Genome 24X7.

If anyone wants to run Linux then knock yourself out! I'm sticking with Win2K and XP. They both are getting the job done and for me that is all that counts.

Time for an avatar change....

[dnar]

Originally posted by wbierman











Sort of a pick on the weakest link thing. hehehe












I resent that remark....





Ahhh, so thats what this is all about! And I thought you were trying to make a valid point!

Are you related to D. Scott Secor by any chance?

[kirek]

Allrighty then, here's the popcorn. Sorry I am late the line at the snack bar was huge! Did I miss anything?





Who ordered the chocolate covered raisins?





:)

[dnar]

Originally posted by kirek



Allrighty then, here's the popcorn. Sorry I am late the line at the snack bar was huge! Did I miss anything?













Who ordered the chocolate covered raisins?













:)



kirek old chum, you have missed the main feature! Dang! Better late than never, pass the popcorn dude! :D



The main feature was quite good, started out as a beat up on Linux theme, twisted into a contradiction debate and ended with the main character taking his bat and ball home. Some ending...



Lets check out what else is screening tonite, I'll take the choc coated raisins if nobody wants 'em :rolleyes:

[siggy]

Dang it looks like I missed the whole show.:(

Any popcorn left?:D

[kirek]

Originally posted by siggy
Dang it looks like I missed the whole show.:(

Any popcorn left?:D

Tons! :D

Also I am making a snack run before tonight's show so place your orders now. :)

(I hope tonight's feature is as good)

-kirek

[Jodie]

Hey Dnar - was that "I resent that remark" or "I represent that remark"?:p :D

[wbierman]

Definately the later....stand up and fight penguin boy....

[dnar]

Go fight someone your own age...

Geeeeesh. I dont have to proove anything m8ee, go play with your Windows boxes, and find someone else to annoy.

[Jodie]

Oops! Ok, break it up! :rolleyes:

The funniest thing I ever saw was two academics go at each other in the parking lot after a debate in a competition. I was giggling sooo hard I couldn't speak for a week...

Anyway - can we stick to issues instead?

[wbierman]

penguin boy...having a bad fish day?

[dnar]

Nope. You? Your the one doing all the debating and provoking here m8ee :D :D :D

I am just here for the entertainment value. More popcorn!!

[wbierman]

Oh, the Uber Fem is here....pick a topic....I'm feeling real catty (insert lots of cat sounds).

[Jodie]

Sorry - I'm already late for a meeting, answering the DIY battery backup question...

[wbierman]

Hey Jodie-

I'm going to be in Sacto this weekend....

[MechCD]

Originally posted by wbierman
Free support....all well and good.



But if my business critical Web server goes down and my Linux friends are not available (out of town, out of the office, or around the world asleep due to time difference), what do I do? Every minute I'm down, money is no longer coming in. Or if it is a File Server and all my knowledge workers are sitting there twiddling their thumbs.... what do I tell them or my customers? I can't contact my friend (Linux tech support)?



There is no business worth it's salt that would rely on support that might or might not be there in a critical situation.



I have a 1-800 number to business critical support from MS. This number is available to me 24x7x365. I have connections and it is free. If I call with an incident, I have a MS tech until the problem is resolved. Period! MS tracks each incident, its resolution and its conclusion. If I call a year later with it, MS can quickly bring up my past incidents and quickly resolve the issue. Not so with Mandrake support. The reason I called Mandrake was to receive phone support which I paid for. Should I not get support that I paid for? I might want to run a business and not have to deal with poorly documented manuals or flacky support.

If that happened, you should know how to fix it. I've called MS support few times, they said go to the library computers and go to their website to fix it. How nice, they charged me too

[wbierman]

When I call I get the support I need until the problem is resolved.

It all depends what product you are calling for support on.

[Jodie]

Originally posted by wbierman
Hey Jodie-

I'm going to be in Sacto this weekend....

Sorry I missed your post earlier... I'm in Truckee today (Sat.) and in LA on Sun. Back in Folsom on Mon...

[wbierman]

another time perhaps...

Oh I'm going to be here next weekend....Saturday for a BBQ

[wbierman]

leaving early tomorrow to avoid traffic which has really become a mess every sunday afternoon....

[Rick_Deadly]

Originally posted by Linux
This provides fuel for the debate (http://www.anandtech.com/IT/showdoc.html?i=1527)

I have seen these exact problems (NT/XP licensing) at our corporation. Unfortunately, we have as close to an unrestricted budget as can be imagined (Government) and we will probably be XP within a year. Due to red tape and ignorance we will probably have other departments budgets reduced drastically to make up for blindly following Microsofts network strategy. At the branch I work at, we've just finished spending about 2.5 million dollars on upgrading our hardware to run Office 2000 and Windows 2000, just so we can upgrade in the next couple months. Why?

So we will have the 2000 installed base and not incure the rediculous charges for going straight from 9x and NT to XP next year. It really sucks when the boys in the upper offices can't see the light through the Windows. :)

[dnar]

Originally posted by Linux

http://www.mslinux.org/

ROFLMAO!!!
http://members.dingoblue.net.au/~dnar/images/icons/linuxsucks_ani.gif

[siggy]

Please tell me that is never going to happen.

MS with a Linux release. :(

[Daniel, Laura, and Nora]

Originally posted by Linux
http://www.mslinux.org/

I haven't laughed so hard since dnar spilled his popcorn while trying to steal kirek's jujubees.

D